The Viall Family Values

It’s impossible not to feel like a third wheel around newlyweds and new parents Nick Viall and Natalie Joy. I’ve trekked from New York to their Sherman Oaks recording studio to sit in on a taping of The Viall Files — the wildly successful relationship advice podcast the former Bachelor star created in 2019 and that Joy now co-hosts — and join them for lunch nearby.

Though the restaurant they’ve selected is directly across the street, the pair hold hands as the three of us walk over. In a pair of well-worn cowboy boots, Viall seems to tower over Joy, who’s dressed down in a form-fitting long-sleeve shirt with lace trimmings. (His style feels SoCal with a twang, while the Georgia-born Joy comes by her own twang naturally.) Once seated inside, they rarely break contact, with one of them resting their hand on the other’s thigh at any given moment. They are that couple.

“I was telling Natalie the other week she’s really the first partner I’ve ever had where I feel like we’re in a relationship,” Viall tells me in a laid-back drawl that undercuts the self-seriousness of his statement. The couple are now eight months out from their country-themed wedding on a farm near Joy’s hometown — where Joy walked down the aisle carrying their 2-month-old daughter, River, in her arms. “We do things together, we talk through things. We’re a team.”

That team is up against a lot of scrutiny. There’s the finger-wagging at their 18-year age difference. (Nick and Nat are 44 and 26, respectively.) The Bachelor fans who are still snarking about the “smug” reputation Viall earned over his four stints on the franchise between 2014 and 2017. Also: the Reddit threads devoted to speculating on their personal lives. (More on that later.) “When we first started dating, I was very self-conscious about the age gap,” says Viall. “But I didn’t want to be so self-conscious about it that I didn’t let [our relationship] happen.”

As he often preaches on the pod, Nick believes that one should protect their own “energy” above all else. “When people say to me that I’m [hated], it hurts my feelings. ... But I have the ability to not go down a rabbit hole and try to justify myself to someone I’ve never met,” Viall says. “That’s really helped us, you know? [Especially] as new parents — what’s the best use of our energy?”

On the show, Viall is famous for being both unapologetically arrogant and almost eerily on the money in terms of his relationship advice. When it comes to Joy, however, he’s nothing but serious. So serious that, after a few scheduling mishaps, the couple flew me out to Los Angeles to witness their relationship. So, so serious that there’s strikingly very little playful ribbing between the two (the closest Viall gets is when I ask about dating “red flags” and he mentions that Joy leaves coffee cups all over the place). The words of affirmation come early and often. “I’ve always secretly thought Natalie was the star,” Viall says, leaning back in his chair. The sleeves of his flannel are rolled up enough to expose the mosaic of tattoos on his inner forearm. “She’s always one of the most engaging people in the room, people are drawn to her. I think Natalie’s aspirational.”

Joy chimes in: “Nick doesn’t give himself enough credit. He’s brilliant to watch when he does [audience advice] calls that I’m lucky enough to sit in with. It’s like he finds the one word that everyone else is overlooking.”

As the two bask in their mutual adoration, I realize what’s going on here: Viall and Joy don’t just feel they found the best partner in the world for themselves. These two believe they’ve each landed the best partner in the world, period. This is what they’re selling on and off the podcast. Why not listen to Nick and Natalie? Just look where it got them.

“You’re unreal.”

Those were the first words Joy ever exchanged with Viall, DMing them to him over Instagram in 2019. “If I really thought he would end up being my husband and the father of my children, I probably would have put more thought into it and been funny or witty,” she says now, her blush-accented nose scrunching up. “He sent [back] a photo that I was tagged in of me on the beach. I think he said, ‘Are you Jesus?’ Because it looked like I was walking on water.”

At the time, Joy was a fresh-to-the-workforce plastic-surgery tech living in Savannah, Georgia, where she grew up as the youngest of seven children. (Viall, who grew up in Waukesha, Wisconsin, is the second oldest of 11 children.) A Snow White beauty, Joy also dabbled in some local modeling and influencing. (Her first Instagram post is from a shoot where she’s splayed on a rock showing off her heavily highlighted hair and substantial underboob; in another, she pairs a thong bikini bottom with just as much sideboob.)

Viall, meanwhile, had traded his work as an account executive at Salesforce for a career as a smarter-than-your-average reality television contestant and was now in the throes of launching the podcast. And when The Viall Files debuted almost exactly six years ago — quickly becoming so popular that within a year it had notched a People’s Choice Award nomination — Viall proved himself as a smarter-than-your-average host and dating expert, too. A bestselling advice book, Donʼt Text Your Ex Happy Birthday, followed in 2022, as well as a gig co-hosting Patti Stanger: The Matchmaker on the CW last year.

“Having River, you realize what’s important in life, and it’s protecting our family. That’s why we don’t give oxygen to any rumors about us.”

With Viall in Los Angeles and Joy in Savannah, they arranged to meet for the first time in New York City. Joy, who at 21 flew in to meet Viall while he was there on a business trip, says, “From the first weekend we spent together, I knew it would be him.” (Take that, Fantasy Suite!) But Viall wasn’t ready to commit.

“It was like, ‘OK, well, you don’t want to date me? I still have to live my life.’ There were other people that I thought were cute, and that I was going out on dates with,” she says in a coy tone directed at Viall. “[One time] he FaceTimed me while I was getting ready for a date. He was like, ‘Text me while you’re there!’ Like, no. But then he was blowing up my phone, and I’m on this date…”

“You do have to show people that they’re taking you for granted, you know?” Viall says, squeezing Joy’s knee. “Natalie played it perfectly.”

“I might’ve poked the bear a little bit. Like, ‘That’s an interesting reaction for someone who doesn’t want to date me.’ But there was no ‘If I do this, then I’ll get him to do this.’ It never went that deep,” she says.

For Viall, though, it was checkmate. “We all love to play games,” he says, smirking.

By December 2020, Joy had uprooted her life and moved in with Viall in the modern, marble-floored ranch he’d recently purchased in Valley Village. Because Joy specialized in ocular procedures (think eyelifts), she had no trouble finding work in the City of Plastic. And despite having only spent weekends together here and there, they both say the transition to living together full time was fairly seamless. “I remember just being very self-conscious about her moving across the country to live my life,” says Viall. “I was trying to be in tune and recognize what she did, and how easy it was for me, given that I didn’t have to change much.”

Joy’s first appearance on Viall’s podcast came the following year, when she joined him for a Bachelorette recap. Once pregnant and on leave from work in 2023, she became a regular guest host. Then when River was born, Joy became an official co-host. “I think she brings an element of coolness to the show,” Viall says. “I really respect her taste. She knows what’s trendy. I’m definitely the friend who’s going to give you the tough advice — the big brother, so to speak. But I feel like Natalie’s a person I want to hang out with.”

“Something Nick says all the time is ‘Do you want to be happy or do you want to be right?’ That’s something that I hear all the time in my head.”

During the segment taping I sat in on, the couple recap an episode of The Real Housewives of Salt Lake City in which newbie fashionista Bronwyn Newport was at odds with her husband, Todd Bradley, who’s 26 years her senior. Sitting in their hunter-green studio — where a The Viall Files-emblazoned sign reading “don’t be a hero, tell us you have to pee” hangs on the door — Joy appears at ease while disagreeing with Viall. He praises Bradley for being a successful head of household; as they dissect the couple’s clash, Joy criticizes Bradley for sounding like a “scolding dad” to his wife. (On The Viall Files, Joy is always the girl’s girl, taking the side of the woman in any situation.)

On the show, the couple often use their own history as a case study. (See: their playful conversations about postpartum sex logistics.) It’s a habit they slip into during our interview, too, offering up soundbite-y takeaways from the different stages of their relationship. “We really said, ‘Hey, it’s probably not the smartest choice for you to move in right away. It definitely has its risks, but the alternatives are also not ideal as well,’” says Viall. “I believe in risk-taking. Just acknowledge the risk you’re taking.”

Still, there’s one topic Viall and Joy refuse to wade into on the podcast or otherwise: the rumors, which have proliferated across Reddit, about their home life. Given that their marriage is a cornerstone of the podcast, why hold back now?

“Having River, you realize what’s important in life, [and it’s] protecting our family. That’s why we don’t give oxygen to any rumors about us,” says Joy. “Then it’s going to be a headline. Then River’s going to see it one day. She’s like, ‘Wait. What happened?’ And it’s like, none of it matters. We know what the truth is. We know what happens in our lives.”

There’s also a brand to protect. The Viall Files, which is currently the second most popular relationship podcast on Apple, now airs three to four times a week. In January 2024, Viall also launched Envy Media, an audio-first lifestyle company that produces podcasts from reality stars (like Vanderpump Rules’ Katie Maloney and former Real Housewives Crystal Kung Minkoff and Cynthia Bailey) and is looking to develop shows in other genres, like true crime and sports. “I want it to be the SportsCenter of reality TV and pop culture,” Viall says. Another way he’s looking to level up? “I definitely want to go back to school to become a therapist, so I can actually stop having to say I’m not one [when giving advice].”

“I’ve lived a lot of life. I’ve survived a lot. It gives me a level of perspective that maybe [other people] don’t have.”

On the Great Podcast Spectrum of Masculinity, Viall’s sensitive-bro approach has little in common with right-wing-friendly alphas like Joe Rogan and Theo Von; the majority of the show’s guests are women, as are its callers (who turn to Viall for help with everything from being cheated on while pregnant to navigating their boyfriend’s secret double life). But Viall is also wary of the other side of the coin: the performatively feminist bros. In recent days, as It Ends With Us stars Justin Baldoni and Blake Lively entered a public legal battle over an alleged smear campaign, podcast comments Viall made in August — in which he questioned why Baldoni hired the same crisis PR team as Johnny Depp and how quickly the Internet pounced on Lively — went viral on social media.

“I had the chance to interview Justin a couple of years ago on my show, and I just had a feeling he wasn’t the person he so loudly portrayed himself to be,” Viall tells me today about those prescient remarks. “When the story broke that the entire cast and author of the book [the movie is based on] had clearly distanced themselves from him, I wasn’t that surprised. However, I was surprised how quickly the Internet seemed to start trying to find reasons to discredit Blake by bringing up old interviews and past alleged mistakes.”

What does he think of all the credit he’s been getting? “I think the Internet has made it easier for people to share other people’s opinions rather than come up with their own. This story just kind of reinforced that.” But to him, that kind of opining is just another day at the office. “When I shared my opinion on this topic, I didn’t see it as speaking out as much; it was me sharing my opinion and challenging my audience to ask themselves different questions.”

Although Joy is a more measured, stabilizing presence on the podcast, she’s well aware of her worth. “Him being the oldest, me being the youngest, I think it brings different perspectives. But I’ve always been the friend that my friends go to when they're having trouble in these scenarios. I’ve lived a lot of life, to be the age that I am,” Joy says. “I think I’ve been through a lot, I’ve survived a lot, and I think it gives me a level of perspective that maybe they don’t have.”

And when Viall looks to the future of the show, he insists it’s Joy at the forefront. “Shortly after we got married, we needed to do a will. Natalie was like, ‘Yeah, what would I do?’” Viall says, referring to an outcome where he dies first. ”Then I was like, ‘You would take over the show.’ It was a moment where I was like, ‘Yeah, it’s what you would do.’”

“I’ve always secretly thought Natalie was the star. People are drawn to her. I think Natalie’s aspirational.”

Two hours into our time together, Viall’s assuredness doesn’t surprise me. Whether they’re deciding what time to give River a bath or carving out a window within an NFL-stacked Sunday to decorate their house for Halloween, each topic is an invitation to highlight their belief that the other is the best parent, partner, and even podcast host imaginable.

“I think something Nick says all the time is ‘Do you want to be happy or do you want to be right?’ That’s something that I hear all the time in my head with little things throughout life,” Joy says. “‘Is this something I’m going to care about 20 minutes from now or tomorrow?’ Then it’s just not worth getting mad about and trying to prove you’re right.”

As we wrap up lunch and say goodbye at the restaurant, we accidentally end up in a group hug. It’s a fitting end to my time with who may be the world’s most confident couple. When they cross the street to head back to the studio, I notice they’re still holding hands.